Obeying God and the Freedom of the Will

[birdman717]

Hello,

I was involved in a discussion the other day and the question below was mentioned. The discussion was abandoned with no real closure, so I figured I would post it here (note: this is not concerning salvation or forgiveness of sins, but of the freedom of man's will):

Can a person stop disobeying God without first receiving Jesus into their heart?

Thanks,
Chris

[Roger B]

To write your question another way: Can a person obey God before salvation?

Physically, Yes. Spiritually, No.

In other words, God doesn’t accept works from the lost, only from his children.

Until the requirements are meet for salvation, works from the lost are inquity. Matt. 7:21-23

[birdman717]

Can a person obey God before salvation? Physically, Yes. Spiritually, No.

Thanks Roger, but you have brought up another question in my mind...

What is the difference between obeying God physically and spiritually? I thought all decisions we make are made in our heart. I mean, without our spirit the body would be dead because it doesn't have a mind of its own. Know what I am saying? You lost me.

[Roger B]

Can a person obey God before salvation? Physically, Yes. Spiritually, No.

Thanks Roger, but you have brought up another question in my mind...

What is the difference between obeying God physically and spiritually? I thought all decisions we make are made in our heart. I mean, without our spirit the body would be dead because it doesn't have a mind of its own. Know what I am saying? You lost me.

Actually, there are three possible ways a person can serve God, but two are Physical, and neither will justify.

1. Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
This is a person who believes in God, but believes salvation is a debt that needs to be paid to acquire eternal life. This could be a person who does good deeds, believing God will accept them for salvation. These will be rejected by Jesus. (Matt. 7:21-23)

2. Faith alone is faith that’s incomplete; not justified by works. What defines a person with ‘faith alone’?... A person who believes that immersion baptism isn’t necessary, and refuses to follow Christ in it. (However, another person might believe the same, but accepted baptism, but they're not to be included in this example.) A believer without baptism; God does not accept any service from them, because they are not His, he doesn’t know them. (Matt. 7:21-23) A faith alone believer, does not believe salvation is a dept needed to be paid. They serve God sincerely believing that salvation is by faith alone and nothing else (without baptism). These will be rejected by Jesus also. (Matt. 7:21-23)

Number 1. above believes WORKS qualifies for salvaton. Number 2. above believes WORKS has nothing to do with salvation.

3. What I meant by “Spiritually”, are works that God accepts from an immersion baptized believer, or the correct way of salvation, with all the requirements : but, not believing salvation is a dept to pay, or refusing baptism. Anyone who refuses baptism denies Jesus and his work on the cross.

Of course, there’s number three again, who has turned away from God after being enlightened, and experienced the Holy Spirit, somewhat like Balaam, a prophet who loved the works of unrighteousness.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (KJV) … 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[birdman717]

Roger,

I see what you mean. In example 1 you were speaking of an outward "do this don't do that" type of religion, like what the Pharisees had. And then you mentioned the type (2) who think all they have to do is just trust in the "package deal salvation" but not do anything for it, or as a response to it.

And then you mentioned another type (3) who really is both of the two other types all in one (works and faith). They believe in the "package deal" but also see that they need to do something in order to be granted forgiveness and this new life: water baptism.

Is it possible that someone could go through some type of outward reformation like type one, but not really mean it from their heart, then be water baptized and think they are saved, lead others to think they are saved, but really not be because they never truly repented and turned from their sinful heart?

In other words, do you think that water baptism may be able to give someone a false sense of security?

[trikard]

Romans 2:12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts...

God's word says men can obey him with out knowing Him. Does not mean they are saved. It is only through faith in Jesus that we are saved! Through His redemtive work on the cross and our willingness to follow Him into our death, burial and resurection. (Rom 6:1ff) So many people forget baptism is not about what we do but what Christ is doing in us.

[birdman717]

Hi,

It does say in verse 13 that "it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law [written or on heart] who will be declared righteous"

Here it says that those who obey the law written on their hearts (conscience) are righteous in God's sight and will be declared righteous (surely he means at judgment day). It goes on to say in verse 16 that God will judge people according to their secrets (motives/intentions of heart), by Jesus Christ, and this is according the good news the Lord has shown Paul (his gospel).

Verse 16: "in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

I think this all lines up with the heart of a very righteous and loving God who will only judge people according to what they know to be right and wrong. For to condemn someone for not doing something they didn't know they were supposed to is unjust as it would also be unjust to condemn someone for doing something they didn't know they shouldn't. But the conscience God has equipped us all with, if followed, will keep us in right-standing with God, whether we have heard the Gospel of Christ or not, according to the passage you put in. Surely, if those with a clear conscience were presented with the Gospel of Christ they would accept the words immediately with faith. I suspect they would be amoung those who received the word with good hearts (Luke 8:15).

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. -1 John 3:7

The Gospel of Grace isn't about "do this don't do that", but clearly is about loving God from a sincere heart and respecting His character, and this can be done by allowing the conscience which he puts within us to be our guide.

1 Timothy 1:5
Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith...

[Roger B]

Is it possible that someone could go through some type of outward reformation like type one, but not really mean it from their heart, then be water baptized and think they are saved, lead others to think they are saved, but really not be because they never truly repented and turned from their sinful heart?

In other words, do you think that water baptism may be able to give someone a false sense of security?

ABSOLUTELY, and it’s true for some of the ‘faith alone’ believers, while believing they’re saved by ‘faith alone and nothing else’, some of them have been baptized, and serve God; unknowingly THEY ARE SAVED, but NOT by faith alone, because they have followed Christ. Yet sadly, others are not baptized and they will be rejected like those in Matthew 7:21-23 and they won’t understand why.

[birdman717]

ABSOLUTELY, and it’s true for some of the ‘faith alone’ believers, while believing they’re saved by ‘faith alone and nothing else’, some of them have been baptized, and serve God; unknowingly THEY ARE SAVED, but NOT by faith alone, because they have followed Christ. Yet sadly, others are not baptized and they will be rejected like those in Matthew 7:21-23 and they won’t understand why.

Say someone preached the word of God and repentance to a native and they believed on Jesus, but before they ever learned they needed to be baptized the missionary left the island. Would this native, although they repented and had faith, and followed what was right for the rest of their life, be condemned to hell because they never knew they were supposed to be water baptized?

[Roger B]

Hi,
I think this all lines up with the heart of a very righteous and loving God who will only judge people according to what they know to be right and wrong. For to condemn someone for not doing something they didn't know they were supposed to is unjust as it would also be unjust to condemn someone for doing something they didn't know they shouldn't. ...

I quoted only a part of your message here because it troubles me somewhat, unless you may say that I’ve taken it out of context. I believe it stands alone.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 (KJV) … 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Simply put, if a person does not know God, they will be condemned. In the same likeness, if a Christian does something they didn't know is a sin, it’s still a sin hated by God. (Confess it, and the blood of Christ covers it.)

For instance, if you get a ticket for driving 45mph when you didn’t know it was 35mph. Or, if you were driving in foreign country and got a ticket for something you were unaware that it was illegal, you’re still going to get a ticket because you broke the law. God deals in the same way; study to show yourself approved to avoid grieving the Lord.

A lost person cannot please God because they sin freely, and the sins they commit, we sometimes do as new believers in a lack of knowledge, but it still is a sin that God hates.

I believe that’s why, parents are supposed to raise their children in the admonition of the Lord; that get them off to a good start. Then, if they become a believer and follow Christ, their mentoring will have helped them understand God better, thus, sin less, or fewer times, but also know that a sin is a sin even without knowledge of it.

A Christian doesn’t go to Hell for a mistake (sinning out of ignorance), nevertheless, a sin has been committed.

I hope I didn’t insult your intelligence, it would be by mistake, I didn’t mean too.

[Roger B]

Say someone preached the word of God and repentance to a native and they believed on Jesus, but before they ever learned they needed to be baptized the missionary left the island. Would this native, although they repented and had faith, and followed what was right for the rest of their life, be condemned to hell because they never knew they were supposed to be water baptized?

I'm glad you asked the question. It's a good one, but it has a long answer! I’ll be as brief as possible, and hope it suffices.

The answer to your question involves ‘imputed righteousness’, which is a difficult subject for many, because few have study it, and that make it seem strange or not even true to some. Every new believer receives it, and it’s a temporary protective measure by God to protect a believer from perishing before baptism and works. It is NOT justification as many (Baptist) believe.

Abraham was imputed with righteousness (IR), and it remitted all of his sins just like baptism does for us now.
Romans 4:5-8 (KJV) … 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

IR is applied to a BELIEVER without works, for BELIEVING. IR forgives iniquities, covers sins, and God relents from charging future sins also. And, IR is still protecting new believers in the New Testament…….
Romans 4:23-24 (KJV) … 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

IR is not salvation, but it allows eternal life. How can that be? IR only remits sins; this puts the believer in a state of innocence like a new born baby. Babies are sinless, they don’t have salvation, but they are SAFE in heaven if they die. Thus, new believers receive IR and are put into a state of innocence where they are held SAFE should they die before baptism, or its refusal.

Cornelius was a Gentile who was uncircumcised, but he was saved under the Old Testament before Peter visited him. Since, the New Testament is finished Cornelius, family and near friends are now lost and bound for Hell, because Old Testament salvation doesn’t work in the New.

Cornelius and all the others received the remission of sins before they received the Holy Ghost…….
Acts 10:43-44 (KJV) … 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

The Holy Ghost will not reside in a sinful body, so a believer must be forgiven before the Holy Ghost can enter a soul. IR gave them the remission of sins, and then the gifts of the Holy Ghost filled them. That happened before their baptism because it was the prophecy of Joel that was used to convince the Jews that God was also the God of the Gentiles. Joel’s prophecy poured out the gifts of the Holy Ghost only to believers and before baptism.

OK. Suppose a solder in combat becomes a new believer, they receive IR that last until baptism or its refusal. Assuming baptism is not possible for them until sometime after their tour of duty ends, IR remains for as long as needed to protect them from perishing. The same would be true for a prisoner of war, or a new believer in prison.

Unknown at the time, but when I made a decision to follow Christ many years ago at the age of 10 or 11, baptism wasn’t until the next week on Sunday morning. I use to wonder, what if I had been killed before baptism, what would happen? Well, now I know that I was protected from perishing by imputed righteousness.

John 3:15-16 (KJV) … 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now I know and understand the verses above much better! I know why Jesus said, “whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. IR protects a BELIEVER from perishing while allowing everlasting life: not salvation, which has a lengthier plan including baptism and works.

In the scenario of your question, it appears the person would go to heaven because they have the remission of sins for their belief, but they aren’t refusing baptism without its knowledge.

[birdman717]

Roger,

really quick... you said: "Abraham was imputed with righteousness".

I am seeing the word "imputed" kinda like "injected". Why was it that Abraham was injected with God's righteousness? Was his loving obedience to God not good enough, so God needed to program him with His own?

[Roger B]

Roger,

really quick... you said: "Abraham was imputed with righteousness".

I am seeing the word "imputed" kinda like "injected". Why was it that Abraham was injected with God's righteousness? Was his loving obedience to God not good enough, so God needed to program him with His own?

Well, if “injected” works for you, then go with it, but it’s more like an honorary degree from a college. Without going to school, you have become knowledgeable in a field that the school wants to recognize you for that knowledge. So, somewhat in this likeness, God sees that you believe what he has told you (Abraham), and he imputed him with righteousness. That’s the only reason he was imputed with righteousness; he believed God would give him a Son. Thus, Abraham was recognized as a believer, and for doing so, in an honorary act by God to protect him from perishing, in case he should be killed before completing his faith, he took away all of his sins; that’s something animal sacrifices couldn’t do.

Abraham’s obedience before he believed God was the first half of ‘faith’; the substance of things hoped for: as in a land promised to him, but it wasn’t difficult for Abraham to hope, or believe in land because he knows that land already exists.

To say, ‘Abraham’s obedience wasn’t good enough’, isn’t a true statement because he had to believe God could perform the supernatural miracle of giving him a son by his 90 year old wife Sarah, not in something that exist, hence, something not seen, even the future of his name being carried on from generation to generation which he would never see for himself.

FYI, imputed righteousness still happens to new believers today. Why, because God doesn’t want to lose a single believers soul. (Sinless: the soul can enter the Kingdom of God) And, imputed righteousness last until a believer is baptized, or until they refuse it. When a believe is baptized, they have followed Christ for the remission of sins, but they still need to justify their faith by serving God. Now, the remission of sins last as long as the soul continues to serve God, or doesn’t return to a lifestyle of sin.

[birdman717]

...imputed righteousness lasts until a believer is baptized, or until they refuse it. When a believe is baptized, they have followed Christ for the remission of sins, but they still need to justify their faith by serving God.

Can you give me the passages that say this. Thanks.

[Roger B]

...imputed righteousness lasts until a believer is baptized, or until they refuse it. When a believe is baptized, they have followed Christ for the remission of sins, but they still need to justify their faith by serving God.

Can you give me the passages that say this. Thanks.

What I said about imputed righteousness is deducted from scripture knowledge.

Abraham was imputed with righteousness because he BELIEVED God’s word concerning a child by his wife, and that his name would be remembered in nation after nation, or many nations.

Genesis 15:4-6 (KJV) … 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Paul wrote King David’s words concerning imputed righteousness and what it did for Abraham....
Romans 4:6-8 (KJV) … 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose INIQUITIES ARE FORGIVEN, and whose SINS ARE COVERED. 8 Blessed is the man to whom THE LORD WILL NOT IMPUTE SIN. (emphasis is mine)

Imputed righteousness forgave Abraham of his iniquities; covered his sins, and the Lord would not charge future sins to him. (That’s almost equal to immersion baptism, except that imputed righteousness doesn’t follow Christ in his death and resurrection.)

Paul says that what happened to Abraham also happens to us also……
Romans 4:23-24 (KJV) … 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we BELIEVE on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
So imputed righteousness is applied when we B E L I E V E that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Notice what happened to Cornelius just before the Holy Ghost was poured out.

Acts 10:43-45 (KJV) … 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43 is the result of being imputed with righteousness as King David said above. Since, the Holy Ghost will not enter a sinful person; God takes away all their sins when they believe, so that the Holy Ghost can be poured out upon Cornelius with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Then, his entire household was baptized, following Jesus in his death and resurrection while washing away their own sins.

At baptism a person has salvation, but a new believer has the gift of righteousness that takes away all their sins should the same die or be killed. Nevertheless, believer’s baptism is salvation without faith justified.
It has always been that works justifies faith in both Testaments….

James 2:19-26 (KJV) …19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirite is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Whether it was a Jew or Gentile, both were justified by their works.

If this reply isn’t clear enough, or you have another question, do ask, because I don’t want you to remain with a question unanswered, or a lack of understanding. This is not the time to hold back from something you don’t understand. Again, I’ll reword something if necessary.

[jessie]

I SEE ALOT OF THINGS HERE ARE MENTIONED ABOUT THE "LAW". IN TALKING ABOUT THE "LAW IT ALSO STATES......."AN EYE FOR AN EYE" BUT THIS IS SHOWN THE LAW IS ABOLISHED BY CHRIST WHEN HE SAYS....YOU HAVE HEARD AND EYE FOR AN EYE, BUT I SAY..LOVE THY NEIGHBOR.

IS HE GOING AGAINST THE LAW THAT WAS SAID TO BE LAID DOWN BY GOD ALMIGHTY? HES MAKING SOME STRONG POINTS ABOUT THE LAW. JUST AS HE DID ABOUT SACRIFICING ANIMALS AND EATING OF PORK AND UNCLEAN ANIMALS.

ARE WE TO BELIEVE THE LAW WAS WRITTEN BY GOD ALMIGHTY FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE AND NOT ALL ..WHEN IT SAYS... HES THE SAME NOW AND FOREVER?

MAYBE IF PEOPLE STAND BY THE GOD ALMIGHTY THEY KNOW IN THEIR HEART.....GO BACK IN THEIR SCRIPTURE AND SEE EXACTLY.....EXACTLY......WHERE THE KILLING OF INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN STARTED, YOU MAY BE AMAZED.

JESUS IS POINTING OUT THINGS T HAT ARENT RIGHT IF WE WILL LISTEN. HES NOT GOING AGAINST THE FATHER. HOW CAN YOU BE SURE YOU ARE LISTENING TO GOD IF YOU ARENT SURE WHO YOU ARE LISTENING TOO? DOES THIS SOUND LIKE THE ONE YOU PRAY TO? DOES THIS ONE SOUND LIKE THE ONE WHO SENT HIS SON TO FORGIVE FOR OUR SINS? WHY WOULD GOD LET A INNOCENT CHILD BE BORN IF HES JUST GONNA HAVE THEM KILLED? DONT TWIST THE WORD ...READ IT AND STAND BY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS..ISNT THAT WHAT U BELIEVE IN? IT WAS THERE WITH THE LAW!!!!!!!